Fiona, while doing some research into a related subject I came across your article where you admonish yourself for indulging in archeological speculation and I must confess this is how I ended up reading your article.
I am looking at a link between three identifiers in circa the 7th century in North East Scotland. Of 11 sites identified six fulfilled three elements, the other give filled two.
I've been thinking this through for a while, reading and visiting sites but only started putting pen to paper tonight.
I unfortunately lack the time or resources to see this through but would be interested in discussing with you to see if it's within your are of interest.
I'm bang in the middle of your research area, the Ogham stone is two miles away and St John the Baptist's Chapel is about a mile away and on one of my regular walking routes.
I'm cautious about going into too much detail on a forum but would be grateful of the chance to discuss further.
The stone reads here lies Edernan map Brude, father of Drustan map Edernan. The stone was carved by the sculptor Bwäwr map Baedd. - The stones are written in Auld Welsh and the Ogham is an odd mix of welsh, latin and irish.
I did a quick bit of digging into Cothall / Loggie (my primary interest is in castles) and while doing so came across a few references to your church. You may have seen these already but I thought I would share them in case you hadn't.
This is brilliant, thanks Andy! It does look as if there was a foundation dedicated to St John around the Findhorn somewhere. Thomas Owen Clancy's paper is the one I'd seen, which does give a lot of historical sources going back to the 13th century. But the location of the chapel seems to be very nebulous, as it's sort of associated with the Meads of St John by Mundole, yet also with Logyn-Fithenach, which is modern-day Edinkillie, several miles away. I wonder if the monastery (if that's what it was) had some fishing rights on the lower Findhorn, and the building itself was further up. Thanks again though - this is all good stuff.
EDIT: Thanks very much too for Oliver O'Grady's thesis, as I'm definitely looking into open-air assemblies in association with Sueno's Stone and I hadn't seen that one.
Thanks Andy - I've also discovered a 1758 map of the fishing rights on the Findhorn, in which the place now called Cothall, just south of Mundole, is *also* called "Loggie": https://maps.nls.uk/view/216443870 There are/were a lot of hollow places along the Findhorn!
fantastic writing and great research Fiona! did make me laugh! although I hadn't realised you had foregone the symbol chase! I suspect you'll quickly come round, noone can distance themselves for too long ...
Thanks Helen! You may be right - I do in fact have a spreadsheet of every Pictish stone with their symbols, ogham inscriptions, nearby place-names and other attributes, but I've never managed to make any sense out of it. Probably needs to be in a database rather than a spreadsheet... I'm sure you have a much more advanced system than I do :)
Fiona, while doing some research into a related subject I came across your article where you admonish yourself for indulging in archeological speculation and I must confess this is how I ended up reading your article.
I am looking at a link between three identifiers in circa the 7th century in North East Scotland. Of 11 sites identified six fulfilled three elements, the other give filled two.
I've been thinking this through for a while, reading and visiting sites but only started putting pen to paper tonight.
I unfortunately lack the time or resources to see this through but would be interested in discussing with you to see if it's within your are of interest.
I'm bang in the middle of your research area, the Ogham stone is two miles away and St John the Baptist's Chapel is about a mile away and on one of my regular walking routes.
I'm cautious about going into too much detail on a forum but would be grateful of the chance to discuss further.
Regards Jamie Swanson jrlswanson@gmail.com
The stone reads here lies Edernan map Brude, father of Drustan map Edernan. The stone was carved by the sculptor Bwäwr map Baedd. - The stones are written in Auld Welsh and the Ogham is an odd mix of welsh, latin and irish.
Thanks Paul for commenting - although this stone has no ogham inscription, are you thinking of a different one?
Sorry I was referring to the majority of Pictish Ogham.....on stones
I did a quick bit of digging into Cothall / Loggie (my primary interest is in castles) and while doing so came across a few references to your church. You may have seen these already but I thought I would share them in case you hadn't.
Oliver O’Grady’s PhD mentions the chapel:
https://theses.gla.ac.uk/506/
As does the POWiS site:
http://www.scottishchurches.org.uk/sites/site/id/4049/name/St+John%27s+Chapel+Site%2C+Rafford+Rafford+Grampian
Both referring to the entry in the OS Name Book for Morayshire:
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/morayshire-os-name-books-1868-1871/morayshire-volume-23/14
The relevant Canmore entry:
https://canmore.org.uk/site/15786/st-johns-mead
There's also an extensive investigation into the church by Thomas Owen Clancy in The Journal of Scottish Name Studies, Volume 10:
https://clog.glasgow.ac.uk/ojs/index.php/JSNS/article/view/133
This is brilliant, thanks Andy! It does look as if there was a foundation dedicated to St John around the Findhorn somewhere. Thomas Owen Clancy's paper is the one I'd seen, which does give a lot of historical sources going back to the 13th century. But the location of the chapel seems to be very nebulous, as it's sort of associated with the Meads of St John by Mundole, yet also with Logyn-Fithenach, which is modern-day Edinkillie, several miles away. I wonder if the monastery (if that's what it was) had some fishing rights on the lower Findhorn, and the building itself was further up. Thanks again though - this is all good stuff.
EDIT: Thanks very much too for Oliver O'Grady's thesis, as I'm definitely looking into open-air assemblies in association with Sueno's Stone and I hadn't seen that one.
Just to reinforce your lag / log conclusion, Logie House certainly sits in something of a hollow in the wider landscape.
Thanks Andy - I've also discovered a 1758 map of the fishing rights on the Findhorn, in which the place now called Cothall, just south of Mundole, is *also* called "Loggie": https://maps.nls.uk/view/216443870 There are/were a lot of hollow places along the Findhorn!
fantastic writing and great research Fiona! did make me laugh! although I hadn't realised you had foregone the symbol chase! I suspect you'll quickly come round, noone can distance themselves for too long ...
Thanks Helen! You may be right - I do in fact have a spreadsheet of every Pictish stone with their symbols, ogham inscriptions, nearby place-names and other attributes, but I've never managed to make any sense out of it. Probably needs to be in a database rather than a spreadsheet... I'm sure you have a much more advanced system than I do :)