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David Firth's avatar

This matter regarding the extent of Loch of Spynie is covered in an article at https://cushnieent.com/articles/LochSpynie.htm

You used this site "The Early Church in the North of Scotland" in your previous post about Pulvrennan and Knockando so I am surprised that you did not see it. The article was written in 1919.

To reference the Website in question I would ask you to use its proper title or its abbreviation ECNS not "on the Cushnie Enterprises website"!

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Daniel Evans's avatar

Hello Fiona - a voice from the ghosts of your 6th form history course... also with an interest decades later in early medieval Moray, probably for very similar reasons. Saw your name pop up on the Northern Picts twitter feed.

Alastair and Helen's theories below could both be supported by the argument on page 114 of this https://pubs.bgs.ac.uk/publications.html?pubID=B01928, that the geological remains of shingle ridges and storm beaches around the modern mouth of the Lossie suggest that the Lossie and Loch Spynie were for some time blocked off from the sea east of Lossiemouth and instead were forced to empty to the west into Burghead Bay through the Roseisle/Alves gap. This subsequently silted up into marshland when access to the sea from the eastern end of the Loch opened up again, splitting the loch/estuary into the eastern Loch Spynie and the western Loch Roseisle. This does seem to have some respectable evidential basis beyond simple speculation around the local tradition of Vikings sailing past Kintrae/Roseisle/your old kitchen window (a tradition that the book is still sceptical about I'm afraid).

This would in turn suggest that the Findhorn wouldn't have had to meander anywhere near as far east as you'd imagine to have emptied into "Loch Spynie", it could conceivably have done so somewhere near, say Coltfield or Hempriggs, and could have done so passing north rather than south of Forres, which seems a bit more realistic. If the Lossie and the Findhorn both entered the sea together via Loch Spynie between Kinloss and Roseisle it could also support the theory that Kinloss might be named after its relationship with the Lossie, and explain why the tiny Lossie/Loxa but not the much larger Findhorn seems to have been recorded by Ptolomy. It is hard to see any of this still being the case as late as 1100 though?

Stratigos' recent paper on the subject (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14732971.2021.1930775) seems to disagree, but without directly mentioning or rebutting the 1968 book. His model has Loch Spynie and Loch Roseisle as always essentially separate, as with your map above. His analysis does seem primarily to be based on changing water levels in the context of constant back-projected modern contours though, so might miss the effects of the movements of silt and sand and shingle causing land contours to change, which seems such a well-recorded feature of the area's history, and which the 1968 book with its geological approach seems to focus on more.

(On the other hand Stratigos is a leading academically authoritative wetland paleogeographer and archaeologist and I'm a random bloke on the internet, so who am I to comment?)

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