Well argued and, as ever, very interesting, Fiona. As I may have mentioned before re Rune Pictorum, in the accompanying database to my 2011 thesis I said, "[r]ather than a loan word in untypically incorrect Latin grammar, this appears to be undeclined ScG n.m/f. raon 'field' in Older Scots orthography. The grid reference is supplied by Sueno's Stone, (re-)erected at the apex of a spur of the parish of Rafford MOR near Burgie. Translation of the Gaelic ethnonym is assumed. The REM interpretations comes from a MS translation of four names from Gaelic to Older Scots which was added to the original charter; but interpretation as 'cairn' has no obvious basis. The plural interpretation of rune in REM may be seeking to make the reference agree with Latin grammar." As to whether the name is directly related to the stone, I must admit I like your identification of the name as part of Runys, and so likely not in its immediate vicinity after all.
A couple of wee points that irked, though (sorry!). 1) I don't think you can describe Runys as a Norman French name, despite the article "le". This is OSc le, lie, often found as a loan word from Latin in records: see https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/le_def_art. 2) How certain are you that Èirinn ~ Earn, as applied here as opposed to its probable original in Ireland, is pre-Gaelic, let alone pre-Celtic...?
PS Many thanks from an earlier post for locating Inchdemmie more accurately than I could from Pont. In fact I see the name survives - or has been resurrected - in the newish Inchdemmie Villa as shown on OS 1:10k. A pair of ancestors were recorded as being in Inchdemmy in 1753, which probably incorporates their croft of 1748 Colls crooks, 1750 Collyscrooks, 1753 Collys Crook (v. DOST cruke '4. A curved or crooked piece of ground; a corner or nook. Chiefly in the names of special portions of land.')
Hi Peadar, this is amazing, thank you. I've just downloaded your thesis and will make some updates to this blog.
I was led into thinking 'Le Runys' was Norman French because the (contested) landholder in 1283 was styling himself 'Reginald de Chen' so I thought it was a French affectation! Your explanation makes more sense.
Re. Eirinn/Earn, I was going by Nicolaisen (Names in the Landscape of the Moray Firth, 1993, pp 260-261: https://www.ssns.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/13_Nicolaisen_Moray_1993_pp_253-262.pdf) where he says "For the second part of Findhorn and Auldearn... an original river name is more likely and much points in this direction, i.e. of -horn, -earn and -eron representing ancient river names meaning 'flowing water'. If this explanation is acceptable, one might further suggest that this older name belonged to a pre-Celtic Indo-European stratum to which the river Nairn also goes back." But I see this was just his view and I'm very happy to be corrected on this.
This is v. useful for Colliescruik too, thank you, which I'd been trying to locate without much success. I'm not 100% convinced the current Inchdemmie Villa is right where Inche Damin was, but perhaps it's not far away. While on the topic, do you have a view of what the 'Damin' in Inche Damin might have referred to?
Thanks again for this very useful comment - updates incoming shortly :)
Glad that was of help, Fiona; and to discover that I'm not the only one to have heard/care re Colliescruik! Not a spelling I've encountered but makes sense - nb interestingly plural in two of my three forms from baptisms in Kinloss OPR. Inchdemmie is the fourth baptism in the Anderson family, followed by baptisms in Rafford (Craighead†, Burgie). So it is possible Inchdemmie was an interim step for the family rather than being a hypernym (as it were) for the area incorporating Colliescruik; but I do suspect it is the area name. It would be nice to know where the owner of the new house got the name, and if it was even the name of the nearby croft shown on early OS maps. As for -demmie, I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to the element, assuming Gaelic. (I can find no parallel indeed, unless Longdemming, Tough ABD NJ6287911311, and The Demmings - now Demmings Plantation - Southdean ROX NT6075310746 (and a few Demmings in England). These I tentatively take to be from https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/demming 'damming'. Which raises some interesting possibilities for you, should Inchdemmie not be Gaelic but Scots, with the loanword inch 'small island, haugh'; if the word order is acceptable....)
Rune Pictorum - no definites about it, and the early cairn idea has arisen from something, right or wrong. It's just that I can't see what could justify it.
Èirinn~Earn - It could well be that the original Èire is pre-Celtic - but only in the context of its original application, to Ireland. My point - really my understanding of discussions by Alex Wolf et al. - is that this may be a transfer in the Scottish context, named in Gaelic. (Or it may not!)
For context, months ago I started to look into whether Sueno's Stone was ever a boundary marker, and as a result I'm now halfway to reconstructing all of the lands that Kinloss Abbey owned, including the piece of land in the 1221 charter which had the 'Rune Pictorum' at its boundary. I'm fairly convinced it's the same piece of land as is later called 'Le Runys', which makes me think that 'Rune' might not be from ScG 'raon' as the name 'Le Runys' suggests something more distinctive.
On the other hand, the other Rune mentioned in 1221, Runetwethel, may well be the same 'terram Heth quam Tuethel tenuit' as appears in the original c. 1150 grant to Kinloss Abbey, in which case the additional piece of land outlined in the 1221 charter could be contiguous with it, and 'raon' would fit well. (This may only make sense in my head - and indeed may only be of interest to me!)
I think the jury may still be out on the root of the name Findhorn, or at least the 'horn' part. I've tended to side with Nicolaisen on this one as I find Watson's theory about all the 'Ireland' names a bit too outlandish, though I'm planning to tackle it properly one day. But admittedly Nicolaisen (SPN, 241) does say "the evidence is too scanty" to say for sure if it is a pre-Celtic name, and Watson (CPNS, 49) identifies the Findhorn with Ptolemy's 'Loxa,' which just muddies the waters (heh) even more.
'Damming' for 'demmie' is definitely interesting, especially given the 'Scottie molendinum' which I see you tackled in your thesis, so I shall go and read up properly on that.
Thanks for the good discussion - place-names are my favourite part of all of my research and I'm endlessly sad that I studied entirely the wrong languages (French, German, Italian) to make sense of them.
"This may only make sense in my head - and indeed may only be of interest to me!"
No, your line of thought on 'rune' makes sense in mine too - and it is most certainly of interest :)
And aye, my acquaintance with Colliescruik came through genealogy, so I have not tackled it toponymically to any great extent or through the usual sources. Not yet anyway. But good to know that crook was a common local element, and presumably land division.
It's wonderful how different interests can converge like this!
Great to have something to look forward to in February - it's usually such a gloomy month!
Well argued and, as ever, very interesting, Fiona. As I may have mentioned before re Rune Pictorum, in the accompanying database to my 2011 thesis I said, "[r]ather than a loan word in untypically incorrect Latin grammar, this appears to be undeclined ScG n.m/f. raon 'field' in Older Scots orthography. The grid reference is supplied by Sueno's Stone, (re-)erected at the apex of a spur of the parish of Rafford MOR near Burgie. Translation of the Gaelic ethnonym is assumed. The REM interpretations comes from a MS translation of four names from Gaelic to Older Scots which was added to the original charter; but interpretation as 'cairn' has no obvious basis. The plural interpretation of rune in REM may be seeking to make the reference agree with Latin grammar." As to whether the name is directly related to the stone, I must admit I like your identification of the name as part of Runys, and so likely not in its immediate vicinity after all.
A couple of wee points that irked, though (sorry!). 1) I don't think you can describe Runys as a Norman French name, despite the article "le". This is OSc le, lie, often found as a loan word from Latin in records: see https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/le_def_art. 2) How certain are you that Èirinn ~ Earn, as applied here as opposed to its probable original in Ireland, is pre-Gaelic, let alone pre-Celtic...?
PS Many thanks from an earlier post for locating Inchdemmie more accurately than I could from Pont. In fact I see the name survives - or has been resurrected - in the newish Inchdemmie Villa as shown on OS 1:10k. A pair of ancestors were recorded as being in Inchdemmy in 1753, which probably incorporates their croft of 1748 Colls crooks, 1750 Collyscrooks, 1753 Collys Crook (v. DOST cruke '4. A curved or crooked piece of ground; a corner or nook. Chiefly in the names of special portions of land.')
Hi Peadar, this is amazing, thank you. I've just downloaded your thesis and will make some updates to this blog.
I was led into thinking 'Le Runys' was Norman French because the (contested) landholder in 1283 was styling himself 'Reginald de Chen' so I thought it was a French affectation! Your explanation makes more sense.
Re. Rune Pictorum there's a persistent association between it and Moray's Cairn (https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/morayshire-os-name-books-1868-1871/morayshire-volume-01/32) that's not helped by the manuscript 'clarification' which has it as "the carne of the Pechts, or the Pechtis fieldis". Moray's Cairn does seem to be in a relevant spot to mark the corner of this piece of land. Do you think the association should definitely be dropped in favour of a 'raon'/'field'?
Re. Eirinn/Earn, I was going by Nicolaisen (Names in the Landscape of the Moray Firth, 1993, pp 260-261: https://www.ssns.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/13_Nicolaisen_Moray_1993_pp_253-262.pdf) where he says "For the second part of Findhorn and Auldearn... an original river name is more likely and much points in this direction, i.e. of -horn, -earn and -eron representing ancient river names meaning 'flowing water'. If this explanation is acceptable, one might further suggest that this older name belonged to a pre-Celtic Indo-European stratum to which the river Nairn also goes back." But I see this was just his view and I'm very happy to be corrected on this.
This is v. useful for Colliescruik too, thank you, which I'd been trying to locate without much success. I'm not 100% convinced the current Inchdemmie Villa is right where Inche Damin was, but perhaps it's not far away. While on the topic, do you have a view of what the 'Damin' in Inche Damin might have referred to?
Thanks again for this very useful comment - updates incoming shortly :)
Glad that was of help, Fiona; and to discover that I'm not the only one to have heard/care re Colliescruik! Not a spelling I've encountered but makes sense - nb interestingly plural in two of my three forms from baptisms in Kinloss OPR. Inchdemmie is the fourth baptism in the Anderson family, followed by baptisms in Rafford (Craighead†, Burgie). So it is possible Inchdemmie was an interim step for the family rather than being a hypernym (as it were) for the area incorporating Colliescruik; but I do suspect it is the area name. It would be nice to know where the owner of the new house got the name, and if it was even the name of the nearby croft shown on early OS maps. As for -demmie, I'm afraid I'm at a loss as to the element, assuming Gaelic. (I can find no parallel indeed, unless Longdemming, Tough ABD NJ6287911311, and The Demmings - now Demmings Plantation - Southdean ROX NT6075310746 (and a few Demmings in England). These I tentatively take to be from https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/demming 'damming'. Which raises some interesting possibilities for you, should Inchdemmie not be Gaelic but Scots, with the loanword inch 'small island, haugh'; if the word order is acceptable....)
Rune Pictorum - no definites about it, and the early cairn idea has arisen from something, right or wrong. It's just that I can't see what could justify it.
Èirinn~Earn - It could well be that the original Èire is pre-Celtic - but only in the context of its original application, to Ireland. My point - really my understanding of discussions by Alex Wolf et al. - is that this may be a transfer in the Scottish context, named in Gaelic. (Or it may not!)
Aha, your Collyscrooks names are from baptism records - I need to look into that! My main source is the seventeenth-century Retours for Elgin and Forres: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UCVDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR43&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false, where 'Colliescruik' appears among a whole bunch of 'cruiks' around Kinloss.
For context, months ago I started to look into whether Sueno's Stone was ever a boundary marker, and as a result I'm now halfway to reconstructing all of the lands that Kinloss Abbey owned, including the piece of land in the 1221 charter which had the 'Rune Pictorum' at its boundary. I'm fairly convinced it's the same piece of land as is later called 'Le Runys', which makes me think that 'Rune' might not be from ScG 'raon' as the name 'Le Runys' suggests something more distinctive.
On the other hand, the other Rune mentioned in 1221, Runetwethel, may well be the same 'terram Heth quam Tuethel tenuit' as appears in the original c. 1150 grant to Kinloss Abbey, in which case the additional piece of land outlined in the 1221 charter could be contiguous with it, and 'raon' would fit well. (This may only make sense in my head - and indeed may only be of interest to me!)
I think the jury may still be out on the root of the name Findhorn, or at least the 'horn' part. I've tended to side with Nicolaisen on this one as I find Watson's theory about all the 'Ireland' names a bit too outlandish, though I'm planning to tackle it properly one day. But admittedly Nicolaisen (SPN, 241) does say "the evidence is too scanty" to say for sure if it is a pre-Celtic name, and Watson (CPNS, 49) identifies the Findhorn with Ptolemy's 'Loxa,' which just muddies the waters (heh) even more.
'Damming' for 'demmie' is definitely interesting, especially given the 'Scottie molendinum' which I see you tackled in your thesis, so I shall go and read up properly on that.
Thanks for the good discussion - place-names are my favourite part of all of my research and I'm endlessly sad that I studied entirely the wrong languages (French, German, Italian) to make sense of them.
"This may only make sense in my head - and indeed may only be of interest to me!"
No, your line of thought on 'rune' makes sense in mine too - and it is most certainly of interest :)
And aye, my acquaintance with Colliescruik came through genealogy, so I have not tackled it toponymically to any great extent or through the usual sources. Not yet anyway. But good to know that crook was a common local element, and presumably land division.
It's wonderful how different interests can converge like this!