In which I examine Alex Woolf’s idea that Sueno’s Stone makes a cameo appearance in Geoffrey of Monmouth’s twelfth-century History of the Kings of Britain.
Very interesting ideas - thanks all. Dr John Barrett in Forres did his PhD on the early mediaeval routes into and through Moray. His research might detail here. I was looking at a more hare brained (!) idea likely the product of an over lurid imagination, following the Northern Pict projects recent excavations of Burghead Palace sites and their thinking re Fortriu. I wondered whether the pair of suenos stones depicted in the early map image were a gateway within a protective 'necklace' of boundary markers delineating a vaguely circular boundary line with its centre at Burghead, perhaps defining a route from Fortriu Palace south west towards the route from the laich of Moray to the upper highlands, perhaps on the approximate established line from Forres to Aviemore.
I was playing with the fanciful notion of might that have been Bridei's triumphant AD 685 return route from his success at Nechtansmere (over which a small group of us are exploring further fanciful notions about a possible battle site in the 'narrow pass though inaccessible mountains' of the Gaick pass), and wondering if these grandest of stones, carved a few generations later, might have marked that event that gave the Pictish nation its 'modern' political foundation. We were exploring whether the battle sequencing and the beheading depictions on the rear (or perhaps front?) might fit the Bede and later Annals' descriptions of the ambush and executions of Ecgfrith's warband, the elimination of Northumbrian hegemony after the two rivers battle humiliation, and the re-establishing of the independence of their nation?
Like I say, lurid imaginings! Thanks for all your fascinating work here and for everyone's well considered contributions. We have such an intriguing history.
Hi Donald, thanks so much for this comment! I don't see any reason why Sueno's Stone shouldn't allude to one or more historical battles; in fact I think that's more likely than it being reportage of recent events as has been proposed in the past.
I am quite doubtful about there ever having been a pair of pillars on the site (as outlined here: https://fortrenn.substack.com/p/was-suenos-stone-originally-one-of) but that shouldn't affect your theory too much. And I'm currently torn between the Altyre Cross (in its original position at Roseisle) being a waymarker on the route to Burghead, or the easternmost marker of a territory encompassing the watershed of the Findhorn, of which Sueno's Stone would mark the centre. That's where my thinking might be going next, in fact...
I'm all for lurid imaginings, and have plenty of my own. The trouble comes when you try to build an evidence-based case. I sometimes despair of ever having started out on this route, given the almost total lack of reliable evidence for anything. But on we go regardless...
Thankyou! Your name was passed to me by Alastair Fraser who was a schoolfriend in Forres back in the 1970s. I re-met him by surprise at the always interesting PAS annual conference online last weekend so great to find connections! Re evidence this was touched on by Dr John Barrett who I again re-met recently. In our small Gaick pass group we are continuing to search the pass for 7th C occupation evidence. If it was the main route north it might explain the 'gap' in symbol stone sites between Glen Garry and the upper spey valley. We have found nothing so far but we are keeping the (lurid) dream alive! Best wishes.
Ah, that's great that you and Alastair are re-connected - he's a frequent commenter here and always with very astute comments. And I'm in touch with Dr John Barrett also, in fact we met the other week when I was up in Forres, and I've just emailed him now about a different thing. Good luck with the researches!
Hi Fiona, great spot of Westshire of Moray and particularly the explicit link to Tarras, but….
Whilst these locations are very much the west side of 17th C Moray, with the Findhorn as the boundary, early medieval Moray seems to have stretched much further west, at least as far as Inverness and the boundaries of Ross.
That said, this unusual reference may be a fossil of an earlier land division of West Moray that perhaps did once stretch from, say, Forres to Inverness - which would then put the stone, once again, on a boundary.
Thanks Alastair, a very good point as ever. I did think about the medieval earldom of Moray stretching even as far as the west coast. That earldom was granted in 1312 though and I don't *think* we know the boundaries of 'Moray/Muréb' at an earlier date than that? But you're right, it likely did stretch as far as Inverness at least. Might have to let that one go :)
Quite often, documents such as that retour to chancery simply copy earlier descriptions of the land from charters or sasines or similar preceding documents in the chain of title. So one question would be whether that description was first written in that retour or if there is an earlier source document ...
Thanks Ian - a very good point, I need to look into it some more. That particular entry is in Volume 1 of the Retours published in 1811, and it's right at the start. Neither the office of the Mairschip nor the Westschyre of Murray ever get mentioned again, so I'm assuming the tradition died with Robert Dunbar. But presumably it *was* a tradition, so as you say there ought to be earlier references to it elsewhere, thank you.
There's the note below some years later, but I haven't searched any further back beyond a ratification of the earldom of Moray in 1592. My hunch would be that, if the estate papers survive, something might be in there, although likely in latin
Hmmm, interesting, thank you - I really need to get to grips with these early modern records. I think that's a different Dunbar and a different office - a Dunbar of Westfield (near Duffus, I think) who's sheriff of Elgin and Forres. My guy Robert Dunbar lives at Tearie on the Darnaway estate, and his 'mairschip' seems a relatively lowly position - as I understand it he is owed a chicken and some oats and some beer from each of the farms on the earl's own estate, and he also gets his own house and plot of land on the estate.
The mairschip or maorship was a hereditary position not dissimilar to a bailie or sheriff's officer. There would be several maors within each sheriffdom, so it would be a relatively prominent position.
Very interesting ideas - thanks all. Dr John Barrett in Forres did his PhD on the early mediaeval routes into and through Moray. His research might detail here. I was looking at a more hare brained (!) idea likely the product of an over lurid imagination, following the Northern Pict projects recent excavations of Burghead Palace sites and their thinking re Fortriu. I wondered whether the pair of suenos stones depicted in the early map image were a gateway within a protective 'necklace' of boundary markers delineating a vaguely circular boundary line with its centre at Burghead, perhaps defining a route from Fortriu Palace south west towards the route from the laich of Moray to the upper highlands, perhaps on the approximate established line from Forres to Aviemore.
I was playing with the fanciful notion of might that have been Bridei's triumphant AD 685 return route from his success at Nechtansmere (over which a small group of us are exploring further fanciful notions about a possible battle site in the 'narrow pass though inaccessible mountains' of the Gaick pass), and wondering if these grandest of stones, carved a few generations later, might have marked that event that gave the Pictish nation its 'modern' political foundation. We were exploring whether the battle sequencing and the beheading depictions on the rear (or perhaps front?) might fit the Bede and later Annals' descriptions of the ambush and executions of Ecgfrith's warband, the elimination of Northumbrian hegemony after the two rivers battle humiliation, and the re-establishing of the independence of their nation?
Like I say, lurid imaginings! Thanks for all your fascinating work here and for everyone's well considered contributions. We have such an intriguing history.
Hi Donald, thanks so much for this comment! I don't see any reason why Sueno's Stone shouldn't allude to one or more historical battles; in fact I think that's more likely than it being reportage of recent events as has been proposed in the past.
I am quite doubtful about there ever having been a pair of pillars on the site (as outlined here: https://fortrenn.substack.com/p/was-suenos-stone-originally-one-of) but that shouldn't affect your theory too much. And I'm currently torn between the Altyre Cross (in its original position at Roseisle) being a waymarker on the route to Burghead, or the easternmost marker of a territory encompassing the watershed of the Findhorn, of which Sueno's Stone would mark the centre. That's where my thinking might be going next, in fact...
I'm all for lurid imaginings, and have plenty of my own. The trouble comes when you try to build an evidence-based case. I sometimes despair of ever having started out on this route, given the almost total lack of reliable evidence for anything. But on we go regardless...
Thankyou! Your name was passed to me by Alastair Fraser who was a schoolfriend in Forres back in the 1970s. I re-met him by surprise at the always interesting PAS annual conference online last weekend so great to find connections! Re evidence this was touched on by Dr John Barrett who I again re-met recently. In our small Gaick pass group we are continuing to search the pass for 7th C occupation evidence. If it was the main route north it might explain the 'gap' in symbol stone sites between Glen Garry and the upper spey valley. We have found nothing so far but we are keeping the (lurid) dream alive! Best wishes.
Ah, that's great that you and Alastair are re-connected - he's a frequent commenter here and always with very astute comments. And I'm in touch with Dr John Barrett also, in fact we met the other week when I was up in Forres, and I've just emailed him now about a different thing. Good luck with the researches!
Hi Fiona, great spot of Westshire of Moray and particularly the explicit link to Tarras, but….
Whilst these locations are very much the west side of 17th C Moray, with the Findhorn as the boundary, early medieval Moray seems to have stretched much further west, at least as far as Inverness and the boundaries of Ross.
That said, this unusual reference may be a fossil of an earlier land division of West Moray that perhaps did once stretch from, say, Forres to Inverness - which would then put the stone, once again, on a boundary.
Certainly more food for thought
Thanks Alastair, a very good point as ever. I did think about the medieval earldom of Moray stretching even as far as the west coast. That earldom was granted in 1312 though and I don't *think* we know the boundaries of 'Moray/Muréb' at an earlier date than that? But you're right, it likely did stretch as far as Inverness at least. Might have to let that one go :)
Quite often, documents such as that retour to chancery simply copy earlier descriptions of the land from charters or sasines or similar preceding documents in the chain of title. So one question would be whether that description was first written in that retour or if there is an earlier source document ...
Thanks Ian - a very good point, I need to look into it some more. That particular entry is in Volume 1 of the Retours published in 1811, and it's right at the start. Neither the office of the Mairschip nor the Westschyre of Murray ever get mentioned again, so I'm assuming the tradition died with Robert Dunbar. But presumably it *was* a tradition, so as you say there ought to be earlier references to it elsewhere, thank you.
There's the note below some years later, but I haven't searched any further back beyond a ratification of the earldom of Moray in 1592. My hunch would be that, if the estate papers survive, something might be in there, although likely in latin
https://www.rps.ac.uk/search.php?action=fetch_jump&filename=charlesii_ms&jump=charlesii_t1661_1_227_d7_trans&type=ms&fragment=m1661_1_227_d7_ms
Hmmm, interesting, thank you - I really need to get to grips with these early modern records. I think that's a different Dunbar and a different office - a Dunbar of Westfield (near Duffus, I think) who's sheriff of Elgin and Forres. My guy Robert Dunbar lives at Tearie on the Darnaway estate, and his 'mairschip' seems a relatively lowly position - as I understand it he is owed a chicken and some oats and some beer from each of the farms on the earl's own estate, and he also gets his own house and plot of land on the estate.
The mairschip or maorship was a hereditary position not dissimilar to a bailie or sheriff's officer. There would be several maors within each sheriffdom, so it would be a relatively prominent position.
oops - my mistake for searching on the fly.